Tucsonans get naked for peace

More than a dozen women got naked Mother’s Day morning and laid on a hill in Himmel Park to promote peace.

Code Pink members formed a naked peace sign at Himmel Park on May 9/submitted photo

Code Pink members formed a naked peace sign at Himmel Park on May 9/submitted photo

How does that work?

Well, the women were from Code Pink, a grassroots peace and social justice movement with the goal of ending the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as deterring future conflicts. And where does the nudity fit in?

“Naked peace is better than naked aggression,” participant Jhan Kold said in a news release.

“It’s a funny thing when a society allows members to be without food, homes, adequate medical care, but not their clothes. We are celebrating life and offering a potent symbol as an alternative to war. Make love, make art, make gardens…not war!”

Perhaps appropriately, Hippie Hill was the location for the demonstration, which began at 6 a.m. at the park, on North Tucson Boulevard just south of Speedway.

“Fourteen women formed the peace sign, one woman photographed it, three men took up perimeter guard duty to fend off unwelcome interest, and two more women showed up late and missed the event,” said Mary DeCamp, one of the original founders of Code Pink Tucson.

Code Pink members at Himmel Park May 9/submitted photo

Code Pink members at Himmel Park May 9/submitted photo

“The lack of dignified jobs in the private sector allows military recruiters to lure our children into training that’s intended to put them at risk and to injure others. No mother should stand for such exploitation and endangerment of the most valuable of her resources.

“What Raytheon and Davis-Monthan do every day offends me more deeply than a bunch of ladies disrobing in the early morning light on Mother’s Day to call attention to the need for a better path,” DeCamp said.

Makes sense to me.

It’s also quite refreshing that Code Pink members are, well, peaceful.

This is a far cry from another organization, which likes to throw paint at fur coats but will remain unnamed. Those particular group members often get naked and proceed to yell and scream until they get the attention they think they deserve just for being naked.

Good going, Code Pink! We are also happy to report there was neither any yelling nor screaming – and no one threw paint on any fur.

Code Pink, founded in 2002 by four women, is largely comprised of women, but men are also welcome. Learn more or join a local chapter at Code Pink, Women for Peace, at www.codepinkalert.org

Please note: Photos edited to comply with editorial guidelines regarding nude demonstrations.

UPDATE: Responses from Mary DeCamp to questions I sent her:

Do cops ever come around and bother you – any local arrests?

Not during the time I’ve been active.

You mentioned “unwanted interest” from onlookers – are people lewd and crude or do they understand the statement the group is making?

You know how hypersexualized our society is, at the same time being incredibly repressive. We don’t want to offend folks, we want to wake them up. We wanted to honor the unique female energy that leads to birthing, nurturing, and healing, not to leering, jeering, or judging.

Do you feel Sunday’s demonstration was successful? Why or why not?

Incredibly successful. It’s not even a day later and we’ve been covered on your blog (so supportively, too) and the right-wing radio morning show (104.1 fm) is covering it, too. The message is so sensible. The urgency is so pressing. The opportunity is so great. If people just knew they could speak up – how easy it is to call for a change and to be heard – they would do it.

The co-incidence of this action and the flash mob doing the Macarana in Park Mall is telling – we are ready for a different way of communicating and you have helped us bridge the gap and reach community members. How do you get more successful than that? (well, you do – the sense of community that sprung out of such intimate sharing among a group of tender-hearted humans is the ultimate and we had that, as well!).

Other Code Pink Tucson events include a Peace Ribbon Tour, a Valentine’s Day Mailing Party and an International Women’s Day Diamondback Bridge in March.

The group also holds an ongoing Really, Really Free Market, 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. the third Saturday of every month east of the tennis courts at Himmel Park. Folks are encouraged to “Bring something to share: useful items, a vegetarian snack, music or poetry, skills (haircuts, painting, knitting, etc.), or just your smile. Take home what you need or want.”

[tnipoll]

wb-logolil

What do you think?

Would you get naked for a good cause?

Is ending the war in Iraq and Afghanistan a good cause?

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About Rynski

Writer, artist, performer who specializes in the weird, wacky and sometimes creepy. Learn more at ryngargulinski.com.
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102 Responses to Tucsonans get naked for peace

  1. ericheithaus says:

    All we are saying is GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.
     
     
     

    • Rynski says:

      you bet, eric!
      …and why do you have this uncanny ability to flood my head with lennon lyrics? you got me with a beatles tune not to long ago…hahahha

    • fortbuckley says:

      What kind of peace do you mean?  Al Qaeda’s version?  The Taliban’s?

  2. Carolyn Classen says:

    Reminds me of those British women who posed semi-nude in that 2003 “Calendar Girls” movie, for a good cause (fighting leukemia).  Mary DeCamp was the Green candidate for the Ward 3 Council seat last fall.

  3. azmouse says:

    I hope I don’t offend anyone and I’m all for naked people, but this just sounds silly.

    So, an eighteen year old can buy a house if they have the money…they can get married and have kids and are adults by our standards.

    The lack of dignified jobs in the private sector allows military recruiters to lure our children into training that’s intended to put them at risk and to injure others. No mother should stand for such exploitation and endangerment of the most valuable of her resources.
    That is one of the most ridiculous things I think I’ve heard. Basically they’re saying that adults that ARE allowed to do adult things and make adult decisions ARE NOT smart enough to know whether they want to go into the military because they are all being duped!?! Lured??

    They use the word ‘exploitation’….what do you call grown women in a public park being naked, possibly in front of underage children?

    Naked peace is better than naked aggression.
    Is it just me or is that the silliest attempt at logic ever!??!

    Jeez, I hope Cindy Sheehan doesn’t jump on this naked ‘end the wars’ bandwagon……

    • Rynski says:

      as usual, you present a good argument, azmouse – very good.
      i like the ‘naked peace/naked aggression’ line! i think it’s quite poetic – but can also understand your POV.
      …and please don’t worry about offending people – that’s all part of the fun, no? hahah.
      p.s. i’m with you on hoping sheehan doesn’t join this bandwagon.

      • azmouse says:

        I don’t agree with the way they are making our young adults sound like they’re stupid and easily brainwashed. The military is A CHOICE as is college, or getting a job. They should feel free to have the option and they have the right to do so.

        Now, if they were getting naked for people who CAN’T help themselves….say against child abuse, that makes more sense to me. Those kids don’t have a choice for their situation. Adults in the military already made their own choice. Why are they trying t help people who don’t want their help?

        Now, if David Beckham decided to join and get naked for this cause, well, I would then be forced to go check it out
        🙂

      • James says:

        Bravo, azmouse!

        You are spot on about this.  Hopefully, we are seeing the end of this Lippy Hiberal foolishness.  “Get Naked For Peace” is just another stupid attempt to get attention, and the media loves this stuff. 

        When I worked as News Director for a radio company, I would get faxes all the time from PETA about stunts like some dude dressing up as a chicken in front of the KFC.  Invariably, they would call me to make sure I got the fax.  I finally told them “look, unless you get some hot chick to stand naked on a city street, you’re not going to get any attention from the media, including me.  And my attention will be personal only.”  Strangely, they stopped calling and faxing.

        Of course, I am willing to bet money that none of the people at yesterday’s event represent anything anyone should see naked.  They probably should have done it at night with no lights!

      • Rynski says:

        james –
        PETA does do naked, or at least scantily clothed demonstrations – maybe you’re the one that prompted them to do it? hahahha.
        also love how you got PETA to stop calling and faxing.

      • azmouse says:

        hahahahaha!

        Hello James and thanks. I figured I’d be greatly out numbered on my opinions with this one.

        They find Raytheon and Davis- Monthan offensive? They are supplying some much needed jobs to Tucson by people who again, made the choice to work at those places. I’d be curious to know where some of the folks in this group of naked people work.
        At that point, you can make anything offensive. Are writers offensive because their books are made with paper? Can pet lovers be offensive because their pets make noise and poop? You could go on and on…

      • Rynski says:

        hahaha on beckham on the bandwagon!
        also good point about causes for folks who cannot help themselves and military being a choice.
        i would have to say, though, i’m sure the recruiters can get pretty alluring with their promises – the only thing that kept me out was the threat of the brush cut (hahah).
         

      • azmouse says:

        Yes…I went with my daughter when she was in high school. She was in JR ROTC and wanted to go into the marine corp after high school. I made her see recruiters from all the branches of the service.
        For the most part, I felt they were pretty honest. They let her know that by her scores she wouldn’t get to go into what she wanted and would most likely have to do something else, which she had no interest in.
        I’ll also admit that the Iraq war started before she graduated from high school and I talked her out of joining the military because of that. Looking back I wish I hadn’t done that. She really had no other dreams or desires and I feel like I took that away from her to this day.
        She’s doing good now, but it took her a few years to find something that made her happy.

      • Rynski says:

        i hear ya, azmouse – i hear your daughter, too – it often takes a VERY long time to figure out what we want/like/can tolerate to do on a regular basis, let alone something that makes us happy! hahah.

        don’t feel bad, either – you gave her the mom guidance that best kept her safest. that’s the mom thing to do! glad she’s doing well know and found something that makes her happy.

      • Dave Ewoldt says:

        There are some things the military knows but we don’t tend to think about. Both an 18 year old and a 30 year old can be trained to kill, but only an 18 year old can be made to believe they enjoy it. 18 year olds are more easily brainwashed. This is a fact.
        With the “unofficial” unemployment rate running at about 20% (higher in minority communities), and college requiring taking on a mountain of debt (to add to all the other debt consumer society requires), the military is promised as a path to the “good life.” However, this good life isn’t meeting the needs of most people, as shown by the fact that 50% of the American population requires at least one prescription drug per day to either make it through the day or to be able to tolerate the day. Then add in alcohol and other recreational drugs that are self-prescribed.
        We try to convince ourselves that we have everything, and act surprised when our youth turn to drugs and violence to fill the void in their lives.
        So, if getting naked for peace is what it takes to get even a few people to start questioning their assumptions about the society we’ve created, where we send our youth off to die for corporate interests (even the Right now admits Iraq was about securing the dwindling oil reserves necessary to protect industrial growth as long as possible) and to protect the lifestyles of the elite, it seems to me one would have to be a blind supporter of the status quo that’s causing all the problems to oppose that.

      • Rynski says:

        hey dave,
        some awesome – and well-written! – points in here.
        thanks for input.

      • azmouse says:

        Hello Dave,
        I hear what you’re saying. I do wonder who is more brainwashed….a kid going into the military knowing he won’t get rich, but hoping to better his life and country, or the kid who feels like he has to go to college so he/she can make lots of money and have a position of power?

      • Rynski says:

        …or brainwashed into thinking college is the magic ticket that will ASSURE them a good job – or any job….

      • azmouse says:

        very true….

      • messycoffee says:

        Most sensible, Dave!

  4. GOP Grandma says:

    The Calendar girls calender was tasteful.   These woman are just exhibitionists.  They have accomplished nothing for thier effort.
    May God’s grace and mercy be shown them. 
    I see no connection between being naked in public and peace.

    • Rynski says:

      thanks for comment, GOP grandma –
      it it helps at all, one woman did have a flag strategically placed over her front before i had to include blurry-out edits.

    • leftfield says:

      Grandma, don’t you think Jim is old enough now to manage things without your help?

  5. Jim Kelley says:

    “Fourteen women formed the peace sign, one woman photographed it, three men took up perimeter guard duty to fend off unwelcome interest, and two more women showed up late and missed the event,” said Mary DeCamp, one of the original founders of Code Pink Tucson.

    So it’s okay to have males guard you when you are naked in a park, but not guard an entire nation when terorists want to kill all of us including the naked women. Got love the feminist mind. If they had done this in Suaid Arabia or Iran, they would be at the executioners gallows by Friday 12:00pm.
    I would call them naive, stupid, and misguided but they aren’t. They are enablers of our enemies.

    • JoeS says:

      “Got love the feminist mind. If they had done this in Suaid Arabia or Iran, they would be at the executioners gallows by Friday 12:00pm.”

      Ironic isn’t it?

      “Useful idiots” mayhaps?

    • Rynski says:

      quick on the draw, once again, jim! hahah.
      both of you very quick!

    • leftfield says:

      Oh, for the love of pete, Jim.  How in the heck do you manage to make the leap that 14 naked people are aiding the enemy?  You’ve really outdone yourself this time, Herr Goebells.  You better go look in your closet, I think there’s some of them terrorists in there.  Obviously they’ve been encouraged to kill by the sight of nakedness.   

      • fortbuckley says:

        Left, do you and tiponeil take turns on the Jim Kelley Watch?  Just asking…

  6. Rynski says:

    Please note: When the website went glitchy around 10 a.m. it extended that glitch to erasing the poll results. Please vote again if so inclined. Thanks!

  7. andrew says:

    “Nude Bomb” comes to mind. the timid I.T.C.

  8. messycoffee says:

    This is America, last time I checked.  Comments like yours JoeS concern me as the implicit message is “women like you (feminists) are still executed in the world.”  You say this almost longingly.  So why not go to Saudi Arabia and be a man in a patriarchal, oppressive world?   Feminists are just as likely to be loyal, active citizens as any other person!  These women were just making a statement, quietly and peacefully, “War is obscene, not nudity.”
    Also what is all the kerfuffle about males and the periphery?  One person – azmouse – is concerned about children seeing the naked peace sign and yet the males who wanted to participate and were not the right gender for a Mother’s  event.  Mothers are usually women in my experience.  😀  ) So the men were stationed to divert attention from the action…., so what?   Those to be diverted were probably police and children.  What is wrong with that?
    I would rather children see nudity than dismembered body parts (as per prime time TV.)
    Assumptions made by Joe, James, Grandma, and AZ Mouse seems to be that feminists are men haters.  Not true.   It is just a downright silly argument.  Another assumption seems to be that people who want peace are anti-American.   This is absurd.   America welcomes diversity of belief, or did at one time, like when the Declaration of Independence was written.  Patriotism (or Matriotism) has nothing to do with a person’s moral,  or religious views.  Your arguments seem to be straw man arguments where you build up a false image and then attack it.
    And children ARE lured into the military.   Video game-like recruitment tools are being used and are constantly being enhanced.   My daughter received her first recruiting material in the mail when she was 14, clearly below the age when anyone, especially my government, should be trying to lure her, any child, into their system with  offers for “free gear” (a cool duffle bag) to be followed by other attractive gifts.

    • azmouse says:

      Hello messycoffee.
      How are you? I was wondering what I said exactly that included me in your sentence…
      Assumptions made by Joe, James, Grandma, and AZ Mouse seems to be that feminists are men haters. 
      That certainly wasn’t a point I was trying to make at all, so I’d like to correct a statement or re-phrase it if I know which one it was.

      I was also under the impression the men guarding the naked women were to keep crazy guys away! lol I wasn’t thinking they were posted to keep kids away, but you could very well be right.

      I’m all for peaceful demonstrations. Been to a few myself. I also like naked people!
      I just don’t agree with their view on our men and women in the military. I give them more credit than to think they are so naive that they are being ‘lured’. I also don’t agree with phrases such as this one:
       
      No mother should stand for such exploitation and endangerment of the most valuable of her resources.

      Personally, I don’t have any children in the military but I know Mothers that do. They are proud of their children and love them very much. They are wonderful Mother’s who would NEVER ‘endanger’ their children in any way.
      I feel this group could’ve gotten their point across in a less verbally offensive way to all the women out there who have children that have chosen to go into the military.

      Of course, this is only my opinion.

      • messycoffee says:

        I’m good.   🙂
        I included you in a general response but was only including you because of the “children exposed to nudity” thing.  I didn’t want to write bunches of replies, so lazily just wrote one long one.
        I suspect the men were less guards than sentries or an early warning system.
        I didn’t use the world exploitation, so I can’t apologize or defend it, but luring underage children into violence against their parents wishes is exploitation.  No one disparages mothers for loving and supporting their children under all circumstances.  I just can’t believe than any mother really wants her babe in arms to grow up and go to war and become a killer.   Shouldn’t there be more options for children to choose amongst on career day?  Most military career types go to college and become active duty as an officers.  The people recruited to join straight out of high school are being lied to — we do not take care of our veterans, and the suicide rate among active duty and veterans is skyrocketing, as are other problems such as PTSD, domestic violence, and the “invisible” unreported epidemic of percussive brain injuries.  Shouldn’t we be putting as much, in fact more, effort, energy and money into creating peace than waging war?   Our world has a whole lotta problems and we cannot afford to spend trillions on waging war.   This isn’t about being anti-military.  You can be pro-soldier and pro-peace.  In fact if you love a soldier, I’m sure you want peace more than most.
         
         

      • James says:

        Hmm…I don’t know.  Most mothers (like my wife) want to see their children do what will make them happy, and productive members of society.  My stepson is a Staff Sergeant int he Air Force, has a wife and two children, and has served two tours since 2003.  He is proud of what he does, and my wife and I are proud of him.  Yes, he was receuited out of high school, but he was not lied to.  He was told that what he would do in the military would make him stronger, and a beter person.  It has.  His grandfather retired from the USAF as a LT. Col., then had a 20 year career with the FAA, and is a stable, functioning great-grandfather.  Of course everyone wants peace, but most of the time, peace comes through strength.

      • azmouse says:

        Sounds like a nice family, James 🙂

      • fortbuckley says:

        Shouldn’t we be putting as much, in fact more, effort, energy and money into creating peace than waging war? 

        Okay, messythinking…er, coffee…how do you propose we “create peace” with the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the PRC?

      • Dave Ewoldt says:

        Well, it starts with being honest with ourselves. Al Qaeda, the Aramaic word for database, didn’t exist until the CIA created, trained, armed, and funded them to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. And China is the only thing keeping Wal-Mart open and fully stocked, as well as being the single largest buyer of American government debt so we can continue wars of imperialism to prop up lifestyles that are destroying our one and only life support system.
        As for the Taliban, much like our own brand of fundamentalism in the US, if people’s needs are being met, if education is available and much more based on teaching critical thinking skills, then people don’t tend to look to whackos for leadership.
         

      • Jim Kelley says:

        Are their any shrinks out their that can speak on Oedipal complexes from women?

    • Rynski says:

      hi messy coffee –
      very scary on the free gifts for a 14-yr-old military recruitment – and video games?  wow.
      i, too, thought the guards were to keep nutty guys away – but you’re explanation about keeping police and kids at bay clears up why none were arrested.
      thanks for input (also like your name – i think most everything i own has a coffee dollop on it).
      p.s. – ?? i don’t see azmouse as saying feminists are man haters, either??
       

      • messycoffee says:

        Hi Rynski!
        I didn’t see it either — I made a generalization, and those things always get you in trouble!  😉
        Virtual worlds were created largely for military applications.   Just Google  “Federal Consortium for Virtual Worlds.”  They are having a meeting in a couple  days — attend virtually — and learn about all the scary stuff the military is developing for training and recruitment.
        I am pretty sure any and everything I wear has a coffee stain or two… a problem that going naked would solve.  LOL.

      • azmouse says:

        LOL!! No worries about the generalization. I was just thinking, what did I say to give that impression!??! lol

        I appreciate the points you’re making, and I appreciate that you’re getting your point across well without insulting some of us who may disagree!

        My issue is more with the wording this group has chosen to use.

         I don’t really care if they’re naked or not, but I still think it’s silly and may detract from the points they’re trying to make.

        Of course, I don’t agree with our men and women in the military being labeled as ‘killers’. I DO see them as defending our country, however. I also think any Mom should be proud whether her child wants to be in the military, a doctor or a janitor.
        I do come from a family that has had many members in the military and I’m proud of that, but I am not a war-mongor of any kind and it breaks my heart when there is bloodshed.

      • messycoffee says:

        I’m glad you are engaging in discussion!  🙂  If only we could all get along in a civil and respectful fashion.
         
        The wording was probably chosen by a single person.
         
        The first time I ever heard of CODEPINK Tucson it was about a woman who visited her children in IRAQ with CODEPINK in 2003 or really soon after the war started.
         
        Per men and women in uniform – I know they are supposed to be defending the country.  I think they are being exploited, abused, and mislead.  Especially in Iraq what had nothing to do with defense or the attack on our country.
         
        I don’t agree with all soldiers being labeled killers but the fact is a lot of soldiers kill and all of them are trained to kill.  This is a tough truth.  Murderer I would not agree with.   But even then, a person trained to kill, who kills outside of the international conventions of war is a murderer.
         
        War kills.   There is no way to sidestep this very ugly fact.   And most of those who die in war are civilians.  That percentage has increased from something like 5 percent to 95 percent in the last century.
         
        I have/had brothers who were soldiers.  My husband was in the Army.   I have friends with kids in the military.   Like any real situation in life, there is no single perspective from which you can see all sides of an issue.  At best we can attempt to understand these perspectives exist and respect them or work to change them or both.

      • Rynski says:

        hahhah! on nudity as solution for coffee messes – perfect!
        i will definitely look more into the recruitment methods et. al. thanks for head’s up – although the more i learn about it, perhaps the more disgusted i shall be…. 
         

      • azmouse says:

        Now that Sebastian is 17, we get all kinds of mail for him. Every college you could name, every branch of the military, every technical school….you name it.

      • Jim Kelley says:

        Have to love the arrogance of the male guards being there “to keep the police away”. Yeah like 3 guys are going to stop the cops from doing their duty if they were so inclined to arrest a bunch of cellulite laden old hippies.

      • messycoffee says:

        Why do you feel the need to try to insult people?   It really doesn’t reflect well on you.
         
        Peace.

    • kevinp says:

      How ironic your allusion to the D.O.I, which would not exist today except for the sacrifices made by the military that you so quickly dismiss as evil.
      The way I see it, if it were not for the military, you wouldn’t be free to badmouth them on this blog.
      talk about an inconvenient truth eh coffee?

      • leftfield says:

        This is absolute nonsense and a myth perpetuated by those who benefit from endless war and imperialism.  American wars are not fought to “protect your freedoms”.  They are fought to extend American hegemony.  If anything, America invades other countries to “protect the right of business interests to ever-expanding markets and profits”.  Endless war is a feature of advanced capitalist societies and the dead on both sides of the conflicts are just the cost of doing business.   

    • James says:

      I think you completely misinterpreted most of what was said here.  JoeS is simply saying that these women who are almost castigating our military are living in a country where the right to protest (clothed or otherwise) is protected speech.  Furthermore, he correctly states that there are countries (like S.A.) who want to kill us for having those rights, and would easily stone women who walk around with short shorts on, much less naked.  So if anything, Joe is telling people like you to try speaking out in countries like that, and see how you are received.

      As for my comments, you got those wrong too.  Nowhere did I even insinuate that feminists were men-haters.  There is a specific type of feminist who is generally (in my experiences, at least), resentful of men, but not a man-hater.  They seem to have a chip on their shoulders about everything gender-related.  For a while I didn’t like the prospect of a female boss, because the first two that I had were like this…resentful of my ‘maleness’ and suspicious that I thought they were inferior.  It took a very special female boss (a Conservative woman who knew how to trust and lead without being over-bearing) to break that cycle.

      I consider myself a feminist, in the sense that women should be equals.  They should earn the same amount of money and respect that men do in the workplace, should be expected to have the same responsibilities as men, and should also be allowed to fight in our military.  No special treatment, no coddling, no women-only schools or scholarships, and no expectation that the man will take care of everything (that means going Dutch on dates too). 

      • messycoffee says:

        Women make 70 to 75 percent of what men make in the workplace.   I don’t like inequality either and women in the U.S. are working for 3/4 of what a man doing the same job is paid, are still the primary childcare givers , and still doing most of the homemaking tasks, well, that just isn’t equality at any level.   You talk about dating… lol… I like to give my hubby special treatments, and he does the same.  Coddling.   Have you ever given birth?  Scholarships for the most part are private and males receive male only scholarships.   I’m not so sure you have your facts right.  The only men I’ve seen who take care of everything are single parents.  I don’t think I have a chip on my shoulder.   Man hater or resentful of men, phrase it how you like, the men who use such phrases in my experience operate from the belief that women are incapable of following logical arguments or making them… similar to what you said “I think you completely misinterpreted most of what was said here.”    No.   I don’t think I did.  I wouldn’t make such sweeping statements about your logical or intellectual abilities and I find it rather sad that you make them about others.
        I’m not “bad mouthing” anyone, certainly not the military.  I have not said we don’t need military.  I have said that warriors kill people.   That is war.  I believe the saying is, War is Hell.   Every individual I have ever spoken to who has been in combat, especially urban or hand to hand battle know that there is nothing glorious about war.
        I believe that if it wasn’t for brave women like those in CODEPINK who are jailed and beaten working for peace, calling attention to what is ignored, over-looked and covered up, just like their grandmothers and great grandmothers who faced similar physical insults when they fought for suffrage, well we would be in a totally corporate controlled militaristic state, rather than teetering on the brink of being in one as we are now.
        We are patient, loving women, and we have always been engaged in the processes that maintain our democracy but we are very disappointed in how the men who have ruled, yes ruled, not governed,  for most of America’s history have made such a mess of things.   I guess it is time we take our rightful place as  52 % of the government, the businesses, and the like.  This will require that we work out cooperative childcare, healthcare, eldercare and the like, as we cannot in good conscience allow those have made such a mess of things, and who overlook contradiction and the details of daily life to take over these core societal functions.   Those who do not want power are going to have to take over the reigns as those who love power have made a mucky mess of everything.
        And yes, the inconvenient truth does come into play.  Climate change is changing everything.  We need to focus on non-hierarchical, local, sustainable community, not  on insulting other people’s integrity.
         

      • fortbuckley says:

        Women make 70 to 75 percent of what men make in the workplace.   I don’t like inequality either and women in the U.S. are working for 3/4 of what a man doing the same job is paid,

        Are you saying that women cannot negotiate their salaries?  Men do that all the time.  So do my women coworkers.

        It’s common for three people to be doing the exact same job, but be paid different salaries—because some people negotiate salary better than others.

        What do you propose—a Federal Salaries Board?

      • tiponeill says:

        It’s common for three people to be doing the exact same job, but be paid different salaries—because some people negotiate salary better than others.
        Yes – obviously men are paid more because they are better negotiators 😉

      • James says:

        Wow, Coffee, you don’t see any resentment in your last post? 

        I believe men and women are equals.  I can’t be any more clear than that.

  9. Ferraribubba says:

    Back in the early1970’s, a gathering of about a hundrend Peace Seekers could be found, all naked, gathered in and around a spot called Tahaquitz Falls, located in the foothills right above Palm Springs on any hot summer weekend afternoon, quietly swimming, tanning, and generally discussing the fate of the world, as we knew it then.
    Ages ranged from the very young to the old, only limited by the strenuous half-mile hike up to the falls and cool natural pool from Palm Canyon Drive.
    This being California in the ’70s, soft drugs were permitted, if used descreetly, and if it in any way disturbed you . . . there was always the trail back down to the world.
    Although I didn’t partake myself, in all the times that I went, I saw only good vibes up there. It’s kind of tough to think otherwise when you’re naked.
    For some reason there were no gawkers. Everybody up there was in the spirit of  ‘no false pretenses and nothing to hide,’ ergo . . . buck-ass naked.
    Yer pal, Ferrari Bubba

    • Rynski says:

      i’m tellin’ ya, i was born too late. sounds like a very groovy time, ferrari bubba. thanks for the fond memory!
       

    • messycoffee says:

       
      Maybe that is why they created the naked peace sign at dawn… no gawkers, no pretenses, just communing with Mother Nature to evoke peace.
      Smiles….

      • Mary DeCamp says:

        Hi,

        Sorry to join the conversation late.  Messycoffe has been right on every point that’s come up.  I don’t know who she is, but she gets it.  We are about waging peace.  Insisting that peace is a valid choice.  That instead of sending our sons and daughters to pick up weapons and arms, we put shovels and books in their hands and put them to work strengthening communities.  We work together to improve the quality of each other’s lives.  And we do it through loving empathy, trust, and open communication. 

        Yeah, some of us are “cellulite laden” and most of us are past the rosy glow of youth projected from fashion magazines designed to tell you to buy their products to fix your defects.  We are regular human beings, just like Jesse Kelly et al., who are struggling to find the best path to a better future for our children and our planet.   

        Peace and love – cuz we’re in it together and it’s more fun that way.

      • fortbuckley says:

        Define “peace”, “loving empathy, trust and open communication” with al Qaeda.

        Better yet—pretend I am Mullah Omar.  What would you say to me?  How would you show me “loving empathy?”

      • leftfield says:

        Define “peace”, “loving empathy, trust and open communication” with al Qaeda.

        I’m afraid it’s too late for that now.  If you wanted peace in the Middle East, you guys should have thought of that long ago, before  American imperialist interventions and support for the oppression of the Palestinians doomed the world to the current status of affairs.

        Perhaps you still believe all this is because “they hate our freedoms”.

      • Don Smith says:

        Allow me to translate for Leftfield:

        “support for the oppression of Palestine” = support of Israel.  (Perhaps, Left, you prefer to refer to Israel as a French diplomat did…’that s%#ty little country.”)

        Guilty as charged!

      • James says:

        Wow, is that an endorsement of Jesse Kelly?  Now that would be news!

    • James says:

      Bubba…kinda sounds like Reddington on a weekend…not that I have ever been there, of course.

  10. messycoffee says:

    Diversions, aspersions and misinformation.  Peace through strength happened when?   I repeat, the percentage of civilian casualties has grown astronomically since WWI.    I talk about how we are not supporting our veterans.  You don’t address these points.  I wonder why?

    • James says:

      Tell ya what, I will pay for your ticket (and Mary D.’s) to the Middle East so you can preach about peace to them.  If you make it back before they stone you, I will buy you both dinner at Govinda’s.

      As much as you wish for it, your John Lennon ‘Imagine’ Utopia just isn’t gonna happen.  And I suppose that’s my fault as a chauvanist warmonger.

    • Ferraribubba says:

      Hey Messy: Large percentage of civilian casualties? Not any more. That might have been true with the atomic bombing of Japan during WW2, and the use of fire-bombing of civilian areas of cities as a terror weapon, but with our use of modern technology, we can pinpoint a target, and use the smallest deadly force possible to accomplish what it took tons of exposives to do in the past.
      Why use a flight of B-52 Bombers loaded with 500 pound bombs, when a single Predator drone, armed with a Hellfire missile can accomplish the same ends.
      Note to all those who want to picket Raytheon, etc: Without technology, Hellfire missiles, etc, the British, in ONE day lost over 30,000 killed, wounded, and missing, in one battle on the Western Front during WW1. Our use of Technology has made being a soldier in either Iraq or Afganistan statistically much safer than walking the streets of either our own Chicago, Washington D.C., or New Orleans.
      420+ killed since it started. Chicago (the home of our beloved POTUS Obama) has twice that many murdered in a year. Think of how many more would die if they didn’t have strict gun laws. I wonder when Chicago is going to outlaw ice-picks and knives? And don’t forget razors.
      Peace out, yer pal Ferrari Bubba

      • leftfield says:

        You’ve been listening to too much American propaganda, FW.  I’m afraid messy is correct about the astronomical increase in civilian casualties in modern warfare. 

    • Don Smith says:

      You don’t address these points.  I wonder why?

      Because of Rod Stewart.

      In his song “Young Hearts,” there’s one of my favorite lyrics:

      There ain’t no point in talkin’
      If there’s nobody listenin’

      You’re not listenin, messycoffee.  You’ve chosen to live in some fantasyland where you can feel like a victim.  In so doing, you’re shunning your responsibility as an American citizen.  (Notice I said “responsibility.”)    

      I think you’re a fool. That’s why I’m not responding to your points.

      • leftfield says:

        Don, I think one of my responsibilities as an American citizen is to oppose and refuse to participate in imperialistic wars of adventure, rather than run around the desert looking for non-existent WMD’s. 

      • Don Smith says:

        If Iraq was an imperialist war of adventure—then why are we withdrawing from that country? Why didn’t we just keep the oil for ourselves and prevent them from having free elections?

      • leftfield says:

        “…then why are we withdrawing from that country?”

        Mark my words, Don: We are never going to withdraw from that country.  The US will maintain a presence in Iraq of some sort for the foreseable future, extending the sphere of influence in the Middle East.  Sure, there will be fewer troops, but the capacity to intervene militarily, if need be, should the puppet government in Bahgdad get an independent streak will remain.    

      • Don Smith says:

        Ah…so the Maliki government is a puppet government.  Why?  Can you show convincing evidence that the elections in Iraq have been controlled by the US government?  Any UN warnings on the subject?

        Or…is Karl Rove using his Jedhi Mind Trick on the Iraqi electorate AND the UN again?  Or is it Halliburton?  Or both?   

    • leftfield says:

      Don is very selective about those points of argument that he will or will not respond to.  Don is also a career militarist and now works in the military-industrial complex we were warned about.

      • Don Smith says:

        Leftfield is a propagandist and an apologist for the theory of communism—which whe put into practice, according to The Black Book of Communism, killed: 

        25 million in Russia during the Bolshevik and Stalinist eras, perhaps 65 million in China under the eyes of Mao Zedong, 2 million in Cambodia, millions more Africa, Eastern Europe, and Latin America–an astonishingly high toll of victims.

        http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087

        I think Leftfield is so upset with the US military-industrial complex because it’s been the primary force that keeps his (?) way of governing from sweeping over the rest of the world.  It’s that nasty military industrial complex that has allowed millions to live in freedom.

        Perhaps that’s what upsets Lefty the most.

      • leftfield says:

        I think Leftfield is so upset with the US military-industrial complex because it’s been the primary force that keeps his (?) way of governing from sweeping over the rest of the world.

        I will give you one example of the kind of thing that upsets me, Don.  Take Nicaragua for example: here we have an ostensibly independent nation; one in which the people suffer for years under the corrupt and brutal US-backed Somoza family dictatorship.  The people of Nicaragua rise up and overthrow Somoza.  They elect a socialist government in an election that the entire world recognizes as free and fair.  Within a year, the literacy rate drops from 50% to about 12% and health care is available for all.  But, because this government is communist, Ronnie decides he knows what is best for the people.  He pays for mercenaries that terrorize civilians and ruin the economy of Nicaragua.  The CIA mines the harbors and an embargo is imposed.  When Congress cuts off funding, Ronnie decides to go into the drug business and import cocaine to the US to fund his dirty little war.   In the end, in order to “save Nicaragua form Communism”, Ronnie has to kill tens of thousands of civilians, lie to Congress and import cocaine into America through his pal Noriega.  
        The people of Nicaragua, now the second poorest country in the hemisphere after a decade of capitalist aggression, are “saved”.  

        This is but one example of American imperialism.  Look up the history of the Philippines post-Spanish American War for just one more example.  

         
           

      • leftfield says:

        No response to Ronnie’s little foray into the exciting world of drug trafficking for fun and profit?  Perhaps, like old Ronnie, you ” just can’t remember”.  
         
        I tell you what, Don:  I will be traveling through Central America soon.  I have to get my commie credentials renewed, pick up some tips on how to infiltrate schools, spread fluoridated water around and so on.  When I stop in Managua to meet with your good friend Daniel Ortega (that’s Presidente Ortega to you; Comrade Ortega to me) I will offer your sincerest apologies for your country’s crimes. 

           

      • Don Smith says:

        For the purposes of this discussion—and ONLY for the purposes of this discussion, because I think you’re far from objective in your telling of the facts related to America’s experience in Nicaragua—I’ll stipulate that you might be right.  Perhaps Reagan overreacted when it came to Nicaragua.

        Unfortunately, when you play with fire, you risk getting burned.

        When you openly ally yourselves with Castro—who once hosted Soviet missiles aimed at the USA on his country’s soil, and whose people went to North Vietnam to torture American prisoners—you risk being perceived as a threat.  Imagine all the mischief Russians and Cubans could have done from Nicaraguan bases…

        Ronald Reagan was a Cold Warrior.  The Sandinistas should have known that.  They cozied up to the wrong people.

        And, spare me the stories of the suffering Ronald Reagan caused.  With the exception of the Nazis, no other worldwide force has caused more suffering than communism.  There’s a whole  Black Book on the subject…

        When you start weeping openly for the misery that Eastern Europeans and Tibetans have suffered at the hands of communists, I’ll take you a bit more seriously.

        FYI, the Spanish-American War was a century ago.  Yes, America had a very racist past,  and there’s a lot to be ashamed about in our past.  But we’ve come a long way. 

        Communism, on the other hand, is dying—due in large part to the efforts of Ronald Reagan.  HOOH-ah!

      • leftfield says:

        If you are going to tally the dead, Don and attribute them to communism in general, then you would have to tally all the dead from the two world wars and most other smaller conflicts and attribute them to capitalism in general.  You would also have to include the millions of people dying from starvation and lack of medical care all over the world every year and put those in the capitalist column also. 

        There is no utopia promised; just an opportunity for a better world.

      • Don Smith says:

        then you would have to tally all the dead from the two world wars and most other smaller conflicts and attribute them to capitalism in general.

        You attribute the Second World War to the excesses of capitalism?  How?  Were Hitler and Tojo robber barons?

        You would also have to include the millions of people dying from starvation and lack of medical care all over the world every year and put those in the capitalist column also. 

        Communism has proven no slouch in causing starvation of its own.  Ask the Ukranians, or the millions of Chinese who died at the result of Mao’s policies.

        There is no utopia promised; just an opportunity for a better world.

        Opportunity?  Try fantasy.  As The Black Book of Communism points out, every major attempt at putting communism into practice has led to the deaths of millions.  And, over and over again, when people have the opportunity to flee communism, they do.

        Karl Marx has proven to be a (pardon the phrase) godsend for totalitarians.  He has made it hard for us capitalists, I have to admit.  We’ve had to work extra hard, freeing millions of people who’ve been enslaved by the adherents of his ideas.

        Fortunately, history and common sense have consigned communism to the ash heap.  Your hero lives on mostly in the hearts of college professors, hackysack players…and anonymous bloggers.

      • leftfield says:

        The Black Book of Communism

        The title certainly makes it sound objective.  Do they have a companion book – The Black Book of Capitalism?   I’m left wondering if you keep this book on your bedstand just as I keep a copy of The Lenin Anthology on my bedstand.

      • Don Smith says:

        Wonder away.

  11. citizentoo says:

    Luckily, they don’t do this sort of thing in Pennsylvania.  I don’t think I could keep my lunch down after seeing some of those Amish women.  Tom would like to see Sadie though!

  12. tiponeill says:

    Don is very selective about those points of argument that he will or will not respond to.
    He also never responds with insults or personal attacks, but reasoned argument – unlike us lowly non-bloggers 😉

    • leftfield says:

      He also never responds with insults or personal attacks, but reasoned argument – unlike us lowly non-bloggers

      It’s true; and if we weren’t such low-life, deluded, foolish, drug-addled dirty hippies too busy singing Kumbaya to listen to reason, we’d know that.

      • Jim Kelley says:

        I think self-knowledge is a good thing in your case, now if we can get beyond your denial of your addiction we might get some where.

      • leftfield says:

        I throw myself at your mercy and beg forgiveness for my ignorance.  With your help I’ve seen the light.  I’ll turn the TV back on and buy myself some white bread and mayonnaise tomorrow. 

  13. Don Smith says:

    Why, Left:

    I will offer your sincerest apologies for your country’s crimes. 

    I thought this was your country, too?

    Here’s a suggestion:  include Cuba* in your trip, and go by boat.  Tell the locals you’ll be sailing back to the USA and you’ll be willing to take anyone who wants to foolishly flee that socialist paradise.

    Bring a BIG boat!

    * If I recall correctly, travel by US citizens to Cuba is restricted.  But, seeing as the USA apparently isn’t YOUR country, you shouldn’t have any problem.

    • Don Smith says:

       I will be traveling through Central America soon.  I have to get my commie credentials renewed, pick up some tips on how to infiltrate schools, spread fluoridated water around and so on.

      Now that you mention it, Left—how often DO you go back to communist countries to meet with your handlers?  Or, do they come up here and see you?

      Will you be touring any reeducation camps on your sojourn?  Moderating some self-criticism sessions?

      Give my best to Danny Boy.

      • leftfield says:

        Will you be touring any reeducation camps on your sojourn?  Moderating some self-criticism sessions?

        Karl Rove is gonna give some lessons on new techniques in torture.  I hear the guy is a million laughs.

      • Don Smith says:

        Now Lefty, you KNOW that you don’t need Karl Rove to teach you torture skill.  Your Cuban friends excel at it.  Ask American POWs from Vietnam—they’ll tell you.

        Karl Rove only tortures Democrats, on Election Days

      • leftfield says:

        Perhaps you could think of the torture of American POW’s in Vietnam the same way you think about civilian casualties in Afghanistan-unfortunate collateral damage, but an acceptable consequence of waging the good fight.  “Yeah, it’s a shame, but these things happen, you know”.  I know they’re not strictly the same thing, but it might ease your conscience and make it easier to get over your depression about getting your hat handed to you by the people of Vietnam.

        I’m just saying.

    • leftfield says:

      It should be clear by now that you live in an entirely different place than me.  Wherever you are from, it ain’t my country.

      • Don Smith says:

        It should be clear by now that you live in an entirely different place than me.

        Thank God.

  14. Julius says:

    I find it curious that the young people AzMouse presumably represents – the ones who make a CHOICE about going into the military rather than college – cannot confront the reality about the US Armed Forces: They are basically killing machines. The machines are operated with the intent of preserving the economic grip that we have on the less developed nations of the world, the ones who cannot defend themselves against us and certainly have no capability of harming us.These truths have been demonstrated many times: Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Panama, Philippines, Korea, Grenada… the list goes on and on. Yet our youth don’t find out the truth until it is too late, when they come home shattered from their war experiences. Why do you think that returning vets commit suicide at more than twice the rate of the general population?All I can do is urge AzMouse and Jim Kelley and the rest of you to do some independent thinking and try to figure out why the United States has a military budget greater than all other countries combined – and why we have been at war almost constantly since 1949.And why we spend about one half of all our tax revenue on military expenditures. Yes, that’s YOUR tax money being used to kill thousands of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq and elsewhere.Just think about it, OK?P.S.: How do I know the military is a killing machine? Because I was in the US Army myself and I witnessed first hand how they tried to turn me into an assassin. I’ve been there: How about you?

  15. VAD says:

    I would get naked in public only for a seriously worthwhile cause…like saving a life.

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